INTARESTIN DISCUSSHINS

INTARESTIN DISCUSSHINS

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melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
Unrelated, but still fun to think about:

Quote:
Otherwise known as the "heap paradox", the question regards how one defines a "thing." Is a bale of hay still a bale of hay if you remove one straw? If so, is it still a bale of hay if you remove another straw? If you continue this way, you will eventually deplete the entire bale of hay, and the question is: at what point is it no longer a bale of hay? While this may initially seem like a superficial problem, it penetrates to fundamental issues regarding how we define objects. This is similar to Theseus' paradox.
 
 
2010 Nov 5 at 16:10 PDT
Down Rodeo
Cap'n Moth of the Firehouse

Find the Hole II Participation Medal
2007 Oct 19 • 5486
57,583 ₧
It's a good question, that. I'd say that a heap is, oh, maybe a kilogram and upwards of straw? If you say that's arbitrary, well, it is, but I like answers to questions. In fact, let's go with... about a kilogram. That'll do!
 
 
2010 Nov 5 at 16:23 PDT
melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
So if it's .0001 grams under 1 kilogram, it isn't a heap anymore?
 
 
2010 Nov 5 at 16:58 PDT
Down Rodeo
Cap'n Moth of the Firehouse

Find the Hole II Participation Medal
2007 Oct 19 • 5486
57,583 ₧
 
 
2010 Nov 5 at 17:21 PDT
melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
Exactly! The point is that it is almost impossible to specifically define an object like that. "About" a kilogram doesn't cut it.
 
 
2010 Nov 5 at 20:39 PDT
Down Rodeo
Cap'n Moth of the Firehouse

Find the Hole II Participation Medal
2007 Oct 19 • 5486
57,583 ₧
melloyellow582 said:
"About" a kilogram doesn't cut it.

Yes it does! A heap is "about" some value. Don't make me go all order-of-magnitude on you.
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 10:48 PDT
melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
Quote:
Is a bale of hay still a bale of hay if you remove one straw?

 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 13:33 PDT
Down Rodeo
Cap'n Moth of the Firehouse

Find the Hole II Participation Medal
2007 Oct 19 • 5486
57,583 ₧
My problem with all these pages is that they're written by philosophy troopers with nothing better to do. I am a physicist, and I will draw a line. So you say: if you remove a straw from a bale of hay, is it still a bale? I say: depends on how big the bale is ;)
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 14:23 PDT — Ed. 2010 Nov 6 at 14:23 PDT
melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
So, the smallest bale of hay that fits your "minimum bale" size minus 1 piece of straw is no longer a bale?
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 15:28 PDT
Down Rodeo
Cap'n Moth of the Firehouse

Find the Hole II Participation Medal
2007 Oct 19 • 5486
57,583 ₧
I'd say no. Why would it be? We've already defined what a bale is. Clearly after removing one unit from it, it's no longer a bale. That's like... If I have a million Kelvin, and it cools by one Kelvin, it's no longer a million Kelvin.
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 15:36 PDT
melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
Yes, but the point is that undefined things are... well, hard to define. It's easy to say that 10-1 is not 10 anymore, but with something abstract like a bale of hay or being "late", the line gets a lot less clear.
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 15:47 PDT
Down Rodeo
Cap'n Moth of the Firehouse

Find the Hole II Participation Medal
2007 Oct 19 • 5486
57,583 ₧
I've not been taking this thread all that seriously, I feel the need to get silly after doing a certain amount of work. Hence my attempts to define a bale of hay. By putting a number to it.

Late's easy though, you stop being late when you're on time.

I am too much a scientist!
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 15:55 PDT
the_cloud_system
polly pushy pants

2008 Aug 1 • 3074
-6 ₧
bale - a large bundle bound for storage or transport
I drink to forget but I always remember.
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 15:59 PDT
aaronjer
*****'n Admin

Comrade General 5-Star
2005 Mar 21 • 4628
1,227 ₧
That showed an impressive degree of a lack of understanding of the current conversation, Cloud.

Personally, as far as the heap/bale thing goes there's two responses I might have. The first is that I'd give it an exact mass requirement to be a heap/bale like DR did and would strictly adhere to that measurement. The second, and far more likely, would be that I wouldn't care enough because it's very unimportant whether or not heaps are classified correctly or not.
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 21:49 PDT
the_cloud_system
polly pushy pants

2008 Aug 1 • 3074
-6 ₧
uhh i mean...ITS A FUCKN BALE O HAY!

if you guys are ACTUALEY arguing about a bale of hay and the matter of "taking one straw, is it considered, bale?"

what i am saying is a "bale" is irrelevant. you just feed your retarded animals with them

there are somethings that you cannot stick numbers too
I drink to forget but I always remember.
 
 
2010 Nov 6 at 23:47 PDT — Ed. 2010 Nov 6 at 23:53 PDT
melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
Yes, that is indeed the point. Thank you for understanding!
 
 
2010 Nov 7 at 01:45 PST
Down Rodeo
Cap'n Moth of the Firehouse

Find the Hole II Participation Medal
2007 Oct 19 • 5486
57,583 ₧
I disagree. Is it really so nonsensical to say that a bale minus one straw is no longer a bale?
 
 
2010 Nov 7 at 06:19 PST
melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
It shouldn't be, but it sort of is.
 
 
2010 Nov 7 at 09:10 PST
aaronjer
*****'n Admin

Comrade General 5-Star
2005 Mar 21 • 4628
1,227 ₧
aaronjer said:
That showed an impressive degree of a lack of understanding of the current conversation, Cloud.


What you said first looked like you were just giving us the dictionary definition of bale, thinking we were wondering what a bale was. If that was not the case then I suppose you're not a dumbass.

For clarity's sake, I would consider a bale to be not a certain specific mass of hay, but a range. Something like 1000-2000 generic units of hay would be a bale, any fraction above or below that would no longer be a bale. Taking one straw away from a bale would not make it stop being a bale unless it was already at the lowest end of the range.
 
 
2010 Nov 7 at 22:06 PST — Ed. 2010 Nov 7 at 22:10 PST
Down Rodeo
Cap'n Moth of the Firehouse

Find the Hole II Participation Medal
2007 Oct 19 • 5486
57,583 ₧
 
 
2010 Nov 8 at 02:25 PST
Rockbomb
Dog fucker (but in a good way now)

2009 Nov 13 • 2045
Down Rodeo said:
Do we solve world hunger now?

Its pretty easy really. Kill everyone = nobody is hungry.
 
 
2010 Nov 8 at 08:11 PST
molkman
Owner of George Washington's Prototype Mittens

Marine Warfare Corporal
Find the Hole Participation Medal
Find the Hole II Participation Medal
Tasty Br�twurst Medal
2005 May 2 • 2066
404 ₧
Problems like the hay-one lose their fascination when they are solved though. Because the awesome lies in their MYSTERY.

I love things like that.
LET LOVE REIGN
 
 
2010 Nov 8 at 11:27 PST
melloyellow582
The Original Portmanteau

Brisk.
2005 Mar 21 • 12860
666 ₧
Got a new one for ya.

Quote:
The paradox itself states: "If this statement is not a shrimp, then it is a paradox."

What makes this statement untimely confusing is the fact that it is not a shrimp. This would have us conclude that it is a paradox.

What makes this statement a paradox is the fact that it makes perfect logical sense, except for the fact that it makes perfect logical sense.

The initial statement makes sense, as the statement is not a shrimp and is paradox. However, paradoxes do not make sense, so the fact that it makes sense and is a paradox makes no sense, making it a paradox.


It's kind of a dumb catch-22 sort of thing, but still ultimately mind-boggling to me.
 
 
2010 Nov 8 at 17:58 PST — Ed. 2010 Nov 8 at 17:59 PST
sprinkles

Chrome Whore
2009 Sep 6 • 2547
10 ₧
So its like a paradox of a paradox?
 
 
2010 Nov 8 at 19:24 PST
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